minstrel: aid for baby bards

Joshua Kronengold mneme at dorsai.org
Tue Mar 11 09:12:13 PST 1997

pendar at unm.edu writes:
>On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Joshua Kronengold wrote:
>> (though not to the original poster, I'm afraid, I still find the
>> statements that you should "not try to teach, because anyone who can't
>> learn the bardic arts on their own is never going to be any good anyway"
>WHAT!?!? That is NOT what I said. What I said is that Bardic skills 
>cannot be taught (because) The person learning them must motivate 
>themselves to learn them on their own. I never said anything about them 
>"never going to be good anyway."
Sure you did.  You didn't mean it that way, certainly, but what you
said was this:  You can't TEACH anyone music.
	This is somewhat offensive, and quite false -- many people can
learn far more from a teacher than they could on their own.  The fact
that even with a teacher, they're going to have to work their butts
off if they want to go anywhere is evident to anyone who has gotten
good at anything, but many people can only go so far without a
teacher, even working very hard, but can go much farther given
feedback and advice.
	Note that "They have to learn by themselves" equates to "If
they can't learn by themselves, they will never be good", whether you
mean it to or no.
	Now, I'll freely admit that I suspected (and suggested, in the
first message), that what you meant was that you can teach, but you
can't force anyone to learn.  This is perfectly true, but it isn't
what you said, and I had problems giving you the benefit of the doubt
with the other comments in there.

>process. I can give you the materials and the knowledge, but it is up to 
>YOU to put it to use. That last line is exactly what I meant by my 
>statement and not "they'll never be any good anyway." You are jumping 
>down my throat for something YOU misunderstood. 

Nah.  I'm jumping down your throat for something you miscommunicated,
but anyways...

>wrong. Giving them criticism at this time is only going to do make them 
>think twice before performing again. 

Already answered this one, but I'll repeat the sentiment -- the trick
is the approach. Have them improve, even if only a little, before your
(and their) eyes.  Point out the things that they can't change and
you'll discourage them, but most neos have more than enough problems
that can be started on in under half an hour.

> and in any case, it won't do any good, because the bardic arts
>> can't be taught strongly offensive) to all of the readers of the
>> Minstrel list who didn't really need to read that.
>I didn't say they couldn't be learned, only that they couldn't be taught.
Methinks one issue is the definition of teach -- to teach is not to
force, but to facilitate.
mneme at dorsai.org	Josh Kronengold			|\      _,,,--,,_  ,)
  ^  	"Unix is easy.  Just like a cross between	/,`.-'`'   -,  ;-;;' 
 /\\ 	 English and Welsh.  Except that you have to   |,4-  ) )-,_ ) /\ 
/-\\\	 take out all the vowels"  -- Me	      '---''(_/--' (_/-'

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