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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ulrich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Very good point about the lack of chess variant
pieces alltogether. However, and do correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Courier
chess a game that became more popular in Europe (than the other
variants) and has lasted longer than other variants - so perhaps the
pieces may be represented in the archaeological record, if only by very few
examples.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>All the best </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>jon</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=u.schaedler@museedujeu.com
href="mailto:u.schaedler@museedujeu.com">u.schaedler@museedujeu.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=jon@gothicgreenoak.co.uk
href="mailto:jon@gothicgreenoak.co.uk">'Jon at Gothic Green Oak'</A> ; </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 14, 2007 12:57
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: hist-games: medieval chess
pieces</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=307394611-14062007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>One
should consider that Courier Chess seems to have been played mainly in Germany
and the Netherlands. So one would have to check if among the medieval finds
from these areas there could be some which originally belonged to the game.
Unfortunately there isn't much. And Antje Kluge-Piinsker's book "Schachspiel
und Trictrac. Zeugnisse mittelalterlicher Spielfreude aus salischer Zeit" ends
with the 12th century, so the material presented by her seems perhaps a little
too early, even if the Courier Chess seems to have existed already at that
time.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=307394611-14062007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>But
the same problem of identification exists for the pieces of arabic chess
variants such as the decimal chess, Tamerlane's chess etc.: Where are all
these Dabbabas, camels etc.?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=307394611-14062007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Ulrich</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=fr dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>De :</B> hist-games-bounces@www.pbm.com
[mailto:hist-games-bounces@www.pbm.com] <B>De la part de</B> Jon at Gothic
Green Oak<BR><B>Envoyé :</B> jeudi, 14. juin 2007
10:42<BR><B>À :</B> hist-games@www.pbm.com<BR><B>Objet :</B> Re:
hist-games: medieval chess pieces<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
<DIV>Thanks to both Jim and Ulrich who replied to my message to the list which
is at the end of this message.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I suppose my real question, for which there is most possibly no
certain answer is though the number of chess pieces from the medieval
period is small they are to a certain extent varied, especially those
identified as king and 'queen' and less so for bishop, knight and rook.
Courier chess is a 13th C game and has extra pieces that have not been
identified. Has anyone considered that any of the chess or other gaming pieces
found from the period could belong to this game.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The second part of the question is when do the first identifiable courier
chess pieces appear. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>jon</DIV>
<DIV>---------------------</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=385372007-14062007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Hi,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=385372007-14062007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>as
far as I know, there are no medieval pieces resembling the extra men of the
Courier-Chess around. Literature about pieces for medieval chess
variants is extremely scarce. I have dealt with chess pieces for arabic
medieval chess variants in a paper published in "The Chess Collector" 1, 1998,
but it doesn't deal with Courier Chess. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=385372007-14062007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=385372007-14062007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Ulrich</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>--------------</DIV>
<DIV>Jon</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I'm a collector of historic forms of chess, off in Spokane, Washington in
the US, and so may have some interesting, though less than helpful, info on
this matter.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Although having been played for nigh on 600 years, no Courier chess sets
have survived. Apparently a wealthy prince donated a set and board to a
chess-crazy town in Germany, but the silver pieces have since been nicked and
only reproductions of some apparently exist in their museum.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Selenius devoted a section to Courier in his chess book, with designs for
a figural set on pillars, rather like the Dieppe style of chess men, but
whether any actual Courier sets looked like that is hard to tell, due to the
lack of preserved sets.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You may be familiar with a painting done around 1500 of two people
evidently playing the game. Unfortunately even with a magnifier it is
hard to say more than that the set apparently was fairly abstract, with knight
horse pieces, but the rest fairly simple shapes (tiered pieces probably for
the king and queen). Since so many of the pieces are shown having ben
moved or captured, it is hard to figure out which were what.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>All that said, none of the pieces look especially similar to the ancient
shatranj style designs, suggesting different roots for the Courier
pieces. The number of preserved chess sets or even isolated chess men is
remarkably small (less so, for example, even than the preservation of early
playing cards) and so trickier to try to discern trends or influences in
designs. My suspicion is that some chess sets may have been taken over
from Courier ones, but in that case the odds would be that the unneeded pieces
would have been simply discarded.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It is also possible that isolated Courier pieces may have been preserved
but misidentified. But so far in my study of the available sets and
pieces nothing jumps out as likely here.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>------------------------</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3>Hi</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT size=3><FONT
face="Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3>This question is about medieval chess men, not the beautiful and
elaborately carved pieces but the symbolic pieces typical of the game in the
early medieval period and their relationship with the early 13th C chess
variant Courier Chess. This has four extra men: the courier (of which there
are 2), the counsellor and the spy, sneak or jester. Have any of the chess
pieces of the medieval period been identified with the additional men from
this game?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT size=3><FONT
face="Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3>Also, can anyone lead me to more recent examples of the additional men
from this game? </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT size=3><FONT
face="Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3>jon</FONT></P></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If you would like more detailed info, or have further questions or
comments, feel free to post away.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Jim</DIV></FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV>
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