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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=090155620-17052007>Jon,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=090155620-17052007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=090155620-17052007>The
Lang Laurence as well as the similar Danish/North German stick dice used for
"put-and-take"-games were wooden.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=090155620-17052007>According to Easther a L.L. is about three inches long.
In Stewart Culin: Chess and playing cards, Washington 1898 there is a reproduced
L.L, which is 7.5 cm long, as well as a 7 cm long octogonal 'Log' made of
ivory. (Cat.No.7134, Museum of Archeology, Univ. of Pennsylvania).
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=090155620-17052007>The
Danish dice sticks varied in size: the smallest were less than 15 mm thick and
40 mm long, while the largest measured some 25 mm in width and 125 mm in length.
The average size was probably approximately 20 by 50 or 60 mm. They were
normally prismatic, but could have rounded corners.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=090155620-17052007>There
were several techniques of using these dice sticks. They were thrown up into the
air, rolled upon a board, rolled between two hands, and sometimes one pushed
upon the edge of them with the end of a finger, causing them to
roll.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=090155620-17052007>The
similar dice tops were of course turned around.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=090155620-17052007>The
dice sticks used in outdoor games, where you hit them with a long stick, were
typically 10-12 cm long and 15-30 mm wide.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=090155620-17052007>One or
both ends were often sharpened, and more or less pyramidal.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=090155620-17052007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=090155620-17052007>Concerning the 10 crosses and the W on the L.L.
described by Easther, I discovered some parallels when I wrote my article for
BGS 6.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=090155620-17052007>I
quote from my own article:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=090155620-17052007>"The
South-West Norwegian 'abeseditt' from Valestrand has the (Roman?) numbers 100,
50, 20 and 10. (Hordaland og Bergen i Manns Minne, Oslo 1974, p.35). Similar
values are known from West Flanders. (de Cock, A. and Teirlinck, Is.: Kinderspel
& Kinderlust in Zuid-Nederland III, Gent 1903, p.47f.) The 'wiep' used in
the game 'wiep-slaan' has the (Roman?) numbers 100, 50, 25 and the word 'wiep',
or as an abbreviation, the letter W. The similar stick used in 'dutzend-slaan'
had the following signs: 10 crosses, meaning 100, 5 crosses, meaning 50, the
Roman numeral 25 and 'niets' that is "nothing" (sometimes marked with a cross or
V)." </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=090155620-17052007>I have
found one more Norwegian example from Vik in Sogn, very near Valestrand: 'slå
kjil' in which the 'kjil' (the dice stick) had the numbers X (10), XX (20), F
(50) and H (100). (Asbjørn Brekke, in Barnas eget lekehefte, Sparebankforeningen
i Norge, c.1980).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=090155620-17052007>The
South-West Norwegian and West Flemish games are obviously closely related,
despite having rather different names.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=090155620-17052007>In
these games the signs on the sticks directly indicate the number of points
scored. This is also the case with the Faroese 'exebiti' described by Johan
Christian Svabo in 1781/82, but the numbers are much lower (I, II, X and XII).
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=090155620-17052007>Another Norwegian group of dice stick games have much
lower values, (X=0, II, IIII and VI); here the numbers decide the number of
strokes that one of the two teams are entitled to make. The numbers on the
Scotch 'strac agus cat' are again different: I, II, III and IV.
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=090155620-17052007>The
first four examples mentioned are the most interesting, what the Long
Lawrence concerns. They all have 100 as the highest value, and in at least one
of the two Flemish examples this is shown by 10 crosses (while, on the other
hand, one of the two Norwegian examples has the letter H in stead). In the two
Flemish examples we find words like 'wiep' or 'niets' or the letter W, a X, or V
on the side of the dice stick with the value zero. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=090155620-17052007>The
ten crosses and the W is also found on Easther's L.L. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=090155620-17052007>I
do'nt think that this parallel is quite accidental, and suppose that Easther's
L.L. borrowed these features from a game similar to the Flemish dice stick
games, while it seems less likely that the latter should have borrowed this
feature from Easther's L.L. 'Wiep-slaan' was the name of one of the Flemish
games, and I don't see that the W could have any meaning in the English
put-and-take game. Similar game names like 'vippa' was used about other stick
games without dice (testified in a Swedish source from the 17th
c.).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=090155620-17052007>The
associations that turned the 10 crosses into the gridiron of St.Lawrence, have
parallels in the Danish and North German dice sticks (and dice tops) used for
'put-and-take'. Here the letters N, T and P (originally "nihil", "totum" and
"pone") on their sides could be interpreted as "Nikolaus", "Thomas" and "Peter",
respectively. Even if such folk etymologies existed, the original Latin names
for the dice sides have often been preserved quite well in the various British,
Danish and German dialects, indicating that this game tradition has a medieval,
and perhaps even Roman origin.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=090155620-17052007>In Leo
van der Heijdt: Face to face with dice, (p.117), two Gallo-Roman wooden dice are
shown, dating from 100-300 A.D. They were moved by means of a handle - probably
the predecessor of the spinning top. They were marked with 1-6 spots, not with
letters or Roman numerals, and can be seen at Musée Archéologique de Saintes
(France).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=090155620-17052007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=090155620-17052007>Best
wishes,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=090155620-17052007>Peter.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=090155620-17052007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=090155620-17052007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=090155620-17052007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=090155620-17052007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=090155620-17052007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=090155620-17052007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=090155620-17052007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=090155620-17052007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=090155620-17052007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=090155620-17052007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=090155620-17052007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----<BR><B>Fra:</B>
hist-games-bounces@www.pbm.com [mailto:hist-games-bounces@www.pbm.com]<B>På
vegne af </B>Jon at Gothic Green Oak<BR><B>Sendt:</B> 17-05-2007
11:08<BR><B>Til:</B> hist-games@www.pbm.com<BR><B>Emne:</B> hist-games: Long
Lawrence<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Peter,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The markings on the four sided die that
Willughby describes makes more sense for playing Put and Take without
question, and so I look forward to your ideas on the development on of the
markings on the later eight sided die.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>One aspect of playing put and take with the four
sided die as opposed to the eight sided one is a social/spacial consideration.
An eight sided die can be rolled easily and therefore played on a table top
with those playing sitting around it. The totum/teetotum similarly. A four
sided die would have to be small for it to be thrown properly in a small space
and have sufficient chance to fall on any of its four sides equally. Is there
any suggestion of size of these dice and what they were made out of?
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have seen photographs of Indian long dice (4
sided) probably 19 C and these seem to be several inches long. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jon</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>