<DIV id=RTEContent>Hi James!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is always amusing to see where these threads lead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think Strutt may have been right when he said the top and skittles game was called Devil among the Tailors. Of course, that does not stop the same name being given to the skittles and swinging weight game that you describe. The phrase Devil among the Tailors has a wider metaphorical sense (a disturbance of tranquillity) that could well apply to both games. One-to-one correspondence between game and name is not guaranteed with old games!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The big Oxford English Dictionary gives only the spinning top version:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS"><B><I><SPAN lang=EN style="mso-ansi-language: EN">the d. among the tailors</SPAN></I></B><SPAN lang=EN style="mso-ansi-language: EN">: a row going on (see Farmer <I>Slang Dict.</I> s.v.); also a game. <?xml:namespace
prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3><B><SPAN lang=EN style="mso-ansi-language: EN">1834</SPAN></B><SPAN lang=EN style="mso-ansi-language: EN"> L</SPAN></FONT><SPAN lang=EN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN">D</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN style="mso-ansi-language: EN"><FONT size=3>. L</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN">ONDONDERRY</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN style="mso-ansi-language: EN"><FONT size=3> <I>Let.</I> 27 May in <I>Court Will. IV & Victoria</I> (1861) II. iv. 98 Reports are various as to the state of the enemy's camp, but all agree that there is the devil among the tailors. <B>1851</B> </FONT><A href="http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-m2.html#mayhew" target=oedbib><SPAN style="COLOR: #002653"><FONT size=3>M</FONT></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR:
#002653">AYHEW</SPAN></A><FONT size=3> <I>Lond. Labour</I> (1861) II. 17 A game known as the ‘Devil among the tailors’..a top was set spinning on a long board, and the result depended upon the number of men, or ‘tailors’, knocked down by the ‘devil’ (top) of each player.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN lang=EN style="mso-ansi-language: EN"><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN style="mso-ansi-language: EN"><FONT face=arial><o:p>Of course, it is possible that Mayhew was copying Strutt, but I don't think so: the 'long board' he describes seems to be different from Strutt's 'circular board'. So we seem to have two sorts of spinning top and skittles games, both called Devil among the Tailors.</o:p></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN style="mso-ansi-language: EN"><FONT
face=arial><o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN style="mso-ansi-language: EN"><FONT face=arial><o:p>Just to throw something else in, did you know that Devil among the Tailors is the name of a firework? As I recall, it consists of a bunch of Roman Candles taped round a jack in the box. The Roman Candles fire first, and give a picture of tranquil activity, like sewing. Then the jack in the box fires with a loud bang, sending jumping crackers everywhere. There may be other versions.</o:p></FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Best wishes - and thanks for your comments as ever</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Adrian</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR><BR><B><I>james@tradgames.org.uk</I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Chaps,<BR><BR>I have some info on this as I've recently become interested in this
game.<BR>(Actually, I have the very same modern version of the game in the link you<BR>gave:<BR>http://woodexpressions.com/499009.jpg. It's called Tirolean Roulette on my<BR>version. Not sure if that means anything, however.)<BR><BR>The quote from Strutt that Adrian gave is actually rather misleading by<BR>Strutt because Devil amongst the tailors has long referred to the English<BR>pub game table skittles with a ball on a chain. Perhaps in his day this was<BR>indeed the term used for the game but I do wonder if he got confused or was<BR>misled. The game in question is in modern times known as Table a Toupie<BR>(sorry French people - I can't do accents on my letters) in French and<BR>Toptafel in Flemish. It's also very popular in the USA where they usually<BR>just call it "Skittles" (which confuses things considerably more). I sell a<BR>modern version in my shop mainly to Americans.<BR><BR>Adrian's implication of a link, is in my view, justified. There is what<BR>appears to be a
geneological missing link. There is a Victorian game called<BR>Cannonade or Castle Bagatelle which is a large circular table with sides.<BR>Around the sides are little rooms and in each a skittle (that looks like a<BR>castle) like Toptafel. However, instead of the spinning top knocking over<BR>the pins, the top hits balls in the middle of the table and the balls have<BR>to go through little hoop entrances into the rooms in order to topple the<BR>pins.<BR><BR>So you see, in order to convert Cannonade into HolzRoulette, you simply need<BR>to remove the pins.<BR><BR>One more point of interest - in Cassells book of fireside fun that mentions<BR>Cannonade, it also says "There is a version of this game known at the toy<BR>shops as the "Game of Bombardment". It is a German introduction and<BR>although not so good a game..."<BR><BR>So, is the game German or English? It seems to be generally thought of as<BR>German but Cannonade was published in 1854 by Jaques. Does anyone have any<BR>other
dates?<BR><BR><BR>James Masters<BR>www.tradgames.org.uk<BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>hist-games mailing list<BR>hist-games@www.pbm.com<BR>http://www.pbm.com/mailman/listinfo/hist-games<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR></DIV>