hist-games: Knave out of doors

Imran Ghory imran at bits.bris.ac.uk
Tue Nov 19 11:59:13 PST 2002

On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, Thierry Depaulis wrote:

> On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 01:35:08 +0000 (GMT) very precisely Imran wrote:
> >Trying to find evidence for the card game "knave out of doors" and have
> >found the following quotes and wanted to know if others agree with me
> >that they refer to the game,
> >
> >----------------------
> >Passage 1:
> This is obvious: not only is it in a game context but there are two other
> card games here, 'commerce' and 'Beggar my neighbour'. I would bet --Is it
> a game? Do we have to guess? How much do we win?-- it is an 18th-c. text.

Close, it's Thomas Morton's "Education" (1813) .

I've included that one as it seems to oppose Parlett's opinion that Beggar
my neighbour and Knave out of doors were the same game. Additionally it's
one of the stongest references after Heywoods.

> >Passage 2:
> >
> >Nick. I can tel you sir the game that master Wendol is best at?
> >Wend. What game is that Nick.
> >Nick. Marry sir, Knaue out of dores.
> Heywood? (Have I won?) ;-)

Indeed, "A woman kilde with kindnesse" (1607).

> >Passage 3:
> The card game here is far from certain.

David Garrick's poem "Tom Fool to Mr. Hoskins, his Counsellor and
Friend." mid 18th century.

The inclusion of the word "beat" and the word "suit" on the first line
inclined me to believe that it was a reference.
> >Passage 4:
> Interesting.
> I don't know if it's a game. 

Alonzo Delano's  "A Live Woman In The Mines" (1857) 

>In all case we want to know where the
> quotations come from.

I chose to leave out the sources to try and avoid biasing people by the
dates given.

There's another mention in James Planche's "High, low, jack, and the
game", but I've only got the 1879 edition (which has large sections
deleted/modified from the 1833 original so I didn't really want to quote


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