hist-brewing: Re: hist-brewing digest, Vol 1 #151 - 9 msgs

Afonso Fraga Landini aflandini at ig.com.br
Mon Jun 30 17:30:23 PDT 2003


----- Original Message -----
From: <hist-brewing-request at pbm.com>
To: <hist-brewing at pbm.com>
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 4:01 PM
Subject: hist-brewing digest, Vol 1 #151 - 9 msgs


> Send hist-brewing mailing list submissions to
> hist-brewing at pbm.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.pbm.com/mailman/listinfo/hist-brewing
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> hist-brewing-request at pbm.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> hist-brewing-admin at pbm.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of hist-brewing digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Unusual request (Linda Short)
>    2. Markham recipes (Owen Hutchins)
>    3. Cordials (Kenjifox2 at aol.com)
>    4. Re: Cordials (Bruce R. Gordon)
>    5. Culpeper: , SPIRIT AND COMPOUND DISTILLED WATERS (Roxanne Brown)
>    6. Re: Cordials (rory)
>    7. Re: Cordials (Bruce R. Gordon)
>    8. Re: Cordials (rory)
>    9. Re: Cordials (Elizabeth England-Kennedy)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> From: "Linda Short" <linda_c001 at hotmail.com>
> To: hist-brewing at pbm.com
> Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 18:02:07 -0500
> Subject: hist-brewing: Unusual request
>
>
> I'm doing research for one of my favorite authors
> who is writing a new book.
> Would someone help me?
> I need a description of beermaking.
> Assume the character is a modern man, who's
> worked in a microbrewery, lives near Seattle and
> has no access to electricity.
>
> I've already sent him a discription of
> meadmaking, but I've never made beer before.
>
> I need sights, sounds, smells, recipe..etc.
>
>
> =====
> -Linda-
>
>   A kind word need not cost much,
> The price of praise can be cheap:
> With half a loaf and an empty cup
>     I found myself a friend.
> -Havamal
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> From: "Owen Hutchins" <owenbrau at earthlink.net>
> To: <hist-brewing at pbm.com>
> Subject: hist-brewing: Markham recipes
> Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 21:40:09 -0400
>
> We brewed up a batch of Markham's ordinary ale last weekend, and ran into
a
> few issues.
>
> It's been some time since we've done much period work, so we're kind of
> starting over here. Our mash was far too hot; we mashed in the water we
knew
> we needed in order to get out the right amount, but Markham says to add
> "water near to boiling", so our mash wound up at 180F+, and we wound up
> having to add more malt to it after it has cooled some in order to get any
> conversion. Help!
> Owen
> "English doesn't borrow from other languages. English follows other
> languages down dark alleys, knocks them over, and goes through their
pockets
> for loose grammar."
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> From: Kenjifox2 at aol.com
> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 07:59:32 EDT
> To: hist-brewing at pbm.com
> Subject: hist-brewing: Cordials
>
>
> --part1_16d.1eced84c.2c318024_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> I'm doing some research on cordials during the 1200's. I've discovered
that
> as a drink for pleasure, cordials did not really exist but there were some
> drinks that were used in a medicinal capacity that could be considered
cordials
> now. But I have not been able to find any recipes or documentation. Could
> someone please point me in the right direction?
>
> Jim
>
> --part1_16d.1eced84c.2c318024_boundary
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"
FACE=
> =3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">I'm doing some research on cordials during the
1200's.=
>  I've discovered that as a drink for pleasure, cordials did not really
exist=
>  but there were some drinks that were used in a medicinal capacity that
coul=
> d be considered cordials now. But I have not been able to find any recipes
o=
> r documentation. Could someone please point me in the right direction?<BR>
> <BR>
> Jim</FONT></HTML>
>
> --part1_16d.1eced84c.2c318024_boundary--
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 4
> From: "Bruce R. Gordon" <obsidian at raex.com>
> To: hist-brewing at pbm.com
> Reply-To: obsidian at raex.com
> Subject: Re: hist-brewing: Cordials
> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:43:51 -0400
>
> Greetings
>      I've been involved in much the same sort of research - you are
> correct, "cordials" as we use the term really don't start to emerge
> much before the 15th-16th centuries. (1st appearance of the
> word "cordial" in an alcoholic sense in English is in the Prologue of
> Chaucer's Canterbury Tales).
>      For what it's worth, try the link below - it's a short paper I did
> some years back on a 13th century concoction. There are links at the
> bottom of that file connecting you with a few other papers I've done on
> the subject. All have bibliographies. The collection of papers should
> give you at least a sense of what's out there, and some pointers as to
> where to head next.
>
> http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/spcwine.html
>
> Bruce R. Gordon
>
> > I'm doing some research on cordials during the 1200's. I've
> discovered that
> > as a drink for pleasure, cordials did not really exist but there were
> some
> > drinks that were used in a medicinal capacity that could be
> considered cordials
> > now. But I have not been able to find any recipes or documentation.
> Could
> > someone please point me in the right direction?
> >
> > Jim
> >
>
> --
> Ex Tenebra, Lux
>
> http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/index.html
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 5
> From: elementalclay at webtv.net (Roxanne Brown)
> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:38:06 -0500 (CDT)
> To: hist-brewing at pbm.com
> Subject: hist-brewing: Culpeper: , SPIRIT AND COMPOUND DISTILLED WATERS
>
>
> --WebTV-Mail-15049-1229
> Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
>
> Jim,
>   This may not be the time line you are researching but it will give you
> some information from the herbalist Culpeper and what was a medicinal
> cordial and the preparation.
>   The site is below.
> Roxanne
>
>
> http://www.elementalgallery.com
>
>
> --WebTV-Mail-15049-1229
> X-URL-Title: Culpeper: The Complete Herbal - COMPOUNDS, SPIRIT AND
COMPOUND
> DISTILLED WATERS
> Content-Disposition: Inline
> Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
>
> http://www.bootlegbooks.com/NonFiction/Culpeper/Herbal/chap375.html
>
> --WebTV-Mail-15049-1229--
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 6
> From: "rory" <rory at forgottensea.org>
> To: hist-brewing at pbm.com, CALON-BREW at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
> Subject: Re: hist-brewing: Cordials
> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 08:41:30 -0600
>
> FOR DISCUSSION:
>
> On the subject of Cordials. Several of us in Calontir (SCA) have been
> discussing that Cordials might better belong in the cooking category than
in
> brewing. If for no other reason than the fact that most of the cordials
that
> we see are someone adding some flavor to a pre-existing alcohol base.
>
> It is hard to say you made a cordial when you added fruit to Everclear.
You
> didn't "brew" anything. Strictly speaking, you had nothing to do with the
> creation of the alcohol what so ever. That would be like saying you made
> coffee this morning when really all you did is grab a cup of coffee at
> QuickTrip and added sugar and cream. Hence you didn't make it. You
flavored
> to taste, which isn't the same.
>
> However, if you made the wine/alcohol, and then distilled the alcohol from
> the base, and then made that into a cordial, then I would be impressed.
>
> I did that several years back with pineapples. I took fresh fruit, made
that
> into a wine. After a year of aging, I took the wine and freeze distilled
the
> water off. Then I added cloves, cinnamon, ginger, and nutmeg. . . It
turned
> out heavenly. Much better than any vodka/everclear based cordial.
>
> At the very least, on scoring cordials in competitions, points should be
> deducted/not awarded for using an pre-made alcohol base.
>
> Rory
>
> PS- As for the research, you are correct, cordials were medicinal until
> (basically) the Renaissance.
>
>
> PPS- This comes from a recent War (SCA) in which several people handed me
> Cordials to try that they had "made."
>
>
> On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:43:51 -0400, Bruce R. Gordon wrote
> > Greetings
> >      I've been involved in much the same sort of research - you are
> > correct, "cordials" as we use the term really don't start to emerge
> > much before the 15th-16th centuries. (1st appearance of the
> > word "cordial" in an alcoholic sense in English is in the Prologue
> > of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales).     For what it's worth, try the
> > link below - it's a short paper I did some years back on a 13th
> > century concoction. There are links at the bottom of that file
> > connecting you with a few other papers I've done on the subject. All
> > have bibliographies. The collection of papers should give you at
> > least a sense of what's out there, and some pointers as to where to
> > head next.
> >
> > http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/spcwine.html
> >
> > Bruce R. Gordon
> >
> > > I'm doing some research on cordials during the 1200's. I've
> > discovered that
> > > as a drink for pleasure, cordials did not really exist but there were
> > some
> > > drinks that were used in a medicinal capacity that could be
> > considered cordials
> > > now. But I have not been able to find any recipes or documentation.
> > Could
> > > someone please point me in the right direction?
> > >
> > > Jim
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Ex Tenebra, Lux
> >
> > http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/index.html
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > hist-brewing mailing list
> > hist-brewing at pbm.com
> > http://www.pbm.com/mailman/listinfo/hist-brewing
>
>
>
> SCA GEEK CODE. Version YF0301. >>
> HF+i BW-i AC+ii {'BR+ii *VN+ii} SR+o
> BW-i  HD+i HS-i CE-i
> A+i HW+o(+i) G+o P+iii
> EX+o(+iii) TR+o(+iii) EN+ii HH-i FM+o(+i) MP+o NT+o WB+iv <<
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 7
> From: "Bruce R. Gordon" <obsidian at raex.com>
> To: hist-brewing at pbm.com
> Cc: CALON-BREW at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
> Reply-To: obsidian at raex.com
> Subject: Re: hist-brewing: Cordials
> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:20:36 -0400
>
> Greetings
>      Well, in theory I could agree, but in actual practice the
> distillation of alcohol is entirely illegal in the USA without very
> expensive and extremely difficult-to-obtain licensing. I don't know how
> they do things in Calontir, but in the Middle, where I am from,
> presentation of home-distilled products at an A+S fair isn't permitted,
> since it is illegal. So I would be unwilling to deduct points on the
> basis of maceration vs distillation.
>      I would have to disagree that blending flavours is a lesser skill -
>  demonstrating a knowledge of period herbs, spices, and fruits,
> blending them in a precise fashion so that no one overwhelms any of the
> others, balancing all that with sugar levels - all these
> accomplishments are at an advanced state of knowledge.
>      And, for the record, I never use vodka - I've seen no
> documentation for it's use in period medicinals or cordials, while
> there is plenty of documentation to support wines and brandies.
> Everclear I don't even want to discuss.
>
> Bruce R. Gordon
> (Forester Nigel FitzMaurice - Middle Kingdom, SCA)
>
> > FOR DISCUSSION:
> >
> > On the subject of Cordials. Several of us in Calontir (SCA) have been
> > discussing that Cordials might better belong in the cooking category
> than in
> > brewing. If for no other reason than the fact that most of the
> cordials that
> > we see are someone adding some flavor to a pre-existing alcohol base.
> >
> > It is hard to say you made a cordial when you added fruit to
> Everclear. You
> > didn't "brew" anything. Strictly speaking, you had nothing to do with
> the
> > creation of the alcohol what so ever. That would be like saying you
> made
> > coffee this morning when really all you did is grab a cup of coffee
> at
> > QuickTrip and added sugar and cream. Hence you didn't make it. You
> flavored
> > to taste, which isn't the same.
> >
> > However, if you made the wine/alcohol, and then distilled the alcohol
> from
> > the base, and then made that into a cordial, then I would be
> impressed.
> >
> > I did that several years back with pineapples. I took fresh fruit,
> made that
> > into a wine. After a year of aging, I took the wine and freeze
> distilled the
> > water off. Then I added cloves, cinnamon, ginger, and nutmeg. . . It
> turned
> > out heavenly. Much better than any vodka/everclear based cordial.
> >
> > At the very least, on scoring cordials in competitions, points should
> be
> > deducted/not awarded for using an pre-made alcohol base.
> >
> > Rory
> >
> > PS- As for the research, you are correct, cordials were medicinal
> until
> > (basically) the Renaissance.
> >
> >
> > PPS- This comes from a recent War (SCA) in which several people
> handed me
> > Cordials to try that they had "made."
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:43:51 -0400, Bruce R. Gordon wrote
> > > Greetings
> > >      I've been involved in much the same sort of research - you are
> > > correct, "cordials" as we use the term really don't start to emerge
> > > much before the 15th-16th centuries. (1st appearance of the
> > > word "cordial" in an alcoholic sense in English is in the Prologue
> > > of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales).     For what it's worth, try the
> > > link below - it's a short paper I did some years back on a 13th
> > > century concoction. There are links at the bottom of that file
> > > connecting you with a few other papers I've done on the subject.
> All
> > > have bibliographies. The collection of papers should give you at
> > > least a sense of what's out there, and some pointers as to where to
> > > head next.
> > >
> > > http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/spcwine.html
> > >
> > > Bruce R. Gordon
> > >
> > > > I'm doing some research on cordials during the 1200's. I've
> > > discovered that
> > > > as a drink for pleasure, cordials did not really exist but there
> were
> > > some
> > > > drinks that were used in a medicinal capacity that could be
> > > considered cordials
> > > > now. But I have not been able to find any recipes or
> documentation.
> > > Could
> > > > someone please point me in the right direction?
> > > >
> > > > Jim
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ex Tenebra, Lux
> > >
> > > http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/index.html
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > hist-brewing mailing list
> > > hist-brewing at pbm.com
> > > http://www.pbm.com/mailman/listinfo/hist-brewing
> >
> >
> >
> > SCA GEEK CODE. Version YF0301. >>
> > HF+i BW-i AC+ii {'BR+ii *VN+ii} SR+o
> > BW-i  HD+i HS-i CE-i
> > A+i HW+o(+i) G+o P+iii
> > EX+o(+iii) TR+o(+iii) EN+ii HH-i FM+o(+i) MP+o NT+o WB+iv <<
> > _______________________________________________
> > hist-brewing mailing list
> > hist-brewing at pbm.com
> > http://www.pbm.com/mailman/listinfo/hist-brewing
> >
>
> --
> Ex Tenebra, Lux
>
> http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/index.html
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 8
> From: "rory" <rory at forgottensea.org>
> To: hist-brewing at pbm.com
> CC: CALON-BREW at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
> Subject: Re: hist-brewing: Cordials
> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:09:00 -0600
>
> On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:20:36 -0400, Bruce R. Gordon wrote
> > Greetings
> >      Well, in theory I could agree, but in actual practice the
> > distillation of alcohol is entirely illegal in the USA without very
> > expensive and extremely difficult-to-obtain licensing.
>
> This is a fallacy. There are Home-brewing supply stores all over the
nation
> selling distilling equipment (for instance:
http://www.thehomebrewstore.com).
> It is prohibited at a *State-level*. The part that is illegal "in the USA"
> (read "by the Feds") is the part about transporting said beverage and its
> sale.
>
> > I don't know
> > how they do things in Calontir, but in the Middle, where I am from,
> >  presentation of home-distilled products at an A+S fair isn't
> > permitted, since it is illegal.
>
> If it is illegal in your state, then at the LEAST, the entrant should
explain
> the choice of a pre-made liquor, and choose one appropriate to the
context,
> and since vodka was rare (until later period) and everclear was unheard
of.
> Again, my point isn't about legality, which as stated above is the biggest
> fallacy in the brewing world, my question is about where/how it should be
> discussed/judged.
>
> >   I would have
> > to disagree that blending flavours is a lesser skill
>
> NOTICE, I didn't say it was a lesser skill, I said that it maybe belonged
in
> cooking. I can't make a good quiche, and all that is is mixing
ingredients.
> There is some skill there. My point of conversation was to examine whether
it
> is fair to place cordials in "brewing." Making Sekanjabin ISN'T generally
> considered "brewing," right? That is the SAME as making a cordial. But
> Sekanjabin is included with cooking not brewing, and my question is
whether
> cordials should be placed there too.
>
> HL Rory McGowen
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 13:26:09 -0400
> Subject: Re: hist-brewing: Cordials
> To: obsidian at raex.com
> Cc: hist-brewing at pbm.com, CALON-BREW at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
> From: "Elizabeth England-Kennedy" <lizek at antioch-college.edu>
>
> Distilling is illegal throughout the US, I believe. there are also
> gallon-limits on the amount that home-brewers can produce annually. (I'm
> at my office right now & don't have the exact # at hand.) However, brewing
> wines / meads, melomels, etc. / beers, ales, etc. is legal as far as the
> Feds are concerned as long as it isn't a home business (hence the gallon
> limits). States and counties can set "local" rules that are more strict,
> however (e.g., the "dry counties" in parts of Midrealm). I am not sure why
> you have not been able to compete -- at the Pennsic I attended, for
> example, homebrew tastings, etc. were held, and I believe a workshop on
> brewing (though I might be misremembering). I am newly-moved to Middle, so
> I don't yet know how the intricacies here work. Is it possible that the
> event(s) you're describing were in /allowing for "dry" regions? -- Liz
> (Lady Aisha Khalima)
>
> obsidian at raex.com writes:
> >Greetings
> >     Well, in theory I could agree, but in actual practice the
> >distillation of alcohol is entirely illegal in the USA without very
> >expensive and extremely difficult-to-obtain licensing. I don't know how
> >they do things in Calontir, but in the Middle, where I am from,
> >presentation of home-distilled products at an A+S fair isn't permitted,
> >since it is illegal. So I would be unwilling to deduct points on the
> >basis of maceration vs distillation.
> >     I would have to disagree that blending flavours is a lesser skill -
> > demonstrating a knowledge of period herbs, spices, and fruits,
> >blending them in a precise fashion so that no one overwhelms any of the
> >others, balancing all that with sugar levels - all these
> >accomplishments are at an advanced state of knowledge.
> >     And, for the record, I never use vodka - I've seen no
> >documentation for it's use in period medicinals or cordials, while
> >there is plenty of documentation to support wines and brandies.
> >Everclear I don't even want to discuss.
> >
> >Bruce R. Gordon
> >(Forester Nigel FitzMaurice - Middle Kingdom, SCA)
> >
> >> FOR DISCUSSION:
> >>
> >> On the subject of Cordials. Several of us in Calontir (SCA) have been
> >> discussing that Cordials might better belong in the cooking category
> >than in
> >> brewing. If for no other reason than the fact that most of the
> >cordials that
> >> we see are someone adding some flavor to a pre-existing alcohol base.
> >>
> >> It is hard to say you made a cordial when you added fruit to
> >Everclear. You
> >> didn't "brew" anything. Strictly speaking, you had nothing to do with
> >the
> >> creation of the alcohol what so ever. That would be like saying you
> >made
> >> coffee this morning when really all you did is grab a cup of coffee
> >at
> >> QuickTrip and added sugar and cream. Hence you didn't make it. You
> >flavored
> >> to taste, which isn't the same.
> >>
> >> However, if you made the wine/alcohol, and then distilled the alcohol
> >from
> >> the base, and then made that into a cordial, then I would be
> >impressed.
> >>
> >> I did that several years back with pineapples. I took fresh fruit,
> >made that
> >> into a wine. After a year of aging, I took the wine and freeze
> >distilled the
> >> water off. Then I added cloves, cinnamon, ginger, and nutmeg. . . It
> >turned
> >> out heavenly. Much better than any vodka/everclear based cordial.
> >>
> >> At the very least, on scoring cordials in competitions, points should
> >be
> >> deducted/not awarded for using an pre-made alcohol base.
> >>
> >> Rory
> >>
> >> PS- As for the research, you are correct, cordials were medicinal
> >until
> >> (basically) the Renaissance.
> >>
> >>
> >> PPS- This comes from a recent War (SCA) in which several people
> >handed me
> >> Cordials to try that they had "made."
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:43:51 -0400, Bruce R. Gordon wrote
> >> > Greetings
> >> >      I've been involved in much the same sort of research - you are
> >> > correct, "cordials" as we use the term really don't start to emerge
> >> > much before the 15th-16th centuries. (1st appearance of the
> >> > word "cordial" in an alcoholic sense in English is in the Prologue
> >> > of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales).     For what it's worth, try the
> >> > link below - it's a short paper I did some years back on a 13th
> >> > century concoction. There are links at the bottom of that file
> >> > connecting you with a few other papers I've done on the subject.
> >All
> >> > have bibliographies. The collection of papers should give you at
> >> > least a sense of what's out there, and some pointers as to where to
> >> > head next.
> >> >
> >> > http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/spcwine.html
> >> >
> >> > Bruce R. Gordon
> >> >
> >> > > I'm doing some research on cordials during the 1200's. I've
> >> > discovered that
> >> > > as a drink for pleasure, cordials did not really exist but there
> >were
> >> > some
> >> > > drinks that were used in a medicinal capacity that could be
> >> > considered cordials
> >> > > now. But I have not been able to find any recipes or
> >documentation.
> >> > Could
> >> > > someone please point me in the right direction?
> >> > >
> >> > > Jim
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Ex Tenebra, Lux
> >> >
> >> > http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/index.html
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > hist-brewing mailing list
> >> > hist-brewing at pbm.com
> >> > http://www.pbm.com/mailman/listinfo/hist-brewing
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> SCA GEEK CODE. Version YF0301. >>
> >> HF+i BW-i AC+ii {'BR+ii *VN+ii} SR+o
> >> BW-i  HD+i HS-i CE-i
> >> A+i HW+o(+i) G+o P+iii
> >> EX+o(+iii) TR+o(+iii) EN+ii HH-i FM+o(+i) MP+o NT+o WB+iv <<
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> hist-brewing mailing list
> >> hist-brewing at pbm.com
> >> http://www.pbm.com/mailman/listinfo/hist-brewing
> >>
> >
> >--
> >Ex Tenebra, Lux
> >
> >http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/index.html
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >hist-brewing mailing list
> >hist-brewing at pbm.com
> >http://www.pbm.com/mailman/listinfo/hist-brewing
> >g/
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> _______________________________________________
> hist-brewing mailing list
> hist-brewing at pbm.com
> http://www.pbm.com/mailman/listinfo/hist-brewing
>
>
> End of hist-brewing Digest
>




More information about the hist-brewing mailing list