hist-brewing: crystal and Vienna malt

NATHAN T Moore NTMOORE at SMTPGATE.DPHE.STATE.CO.US
Tue Dec 5 08:48:58 PST 2000


Damn, I am on a roll, I would like to apologize to everyone for spreading poor information and thank Jeff for setting me straight.  This is all stuff I had read in the past and assumed true and have been using this information in my last 7 years of brewing, I guess this proves you can never read enough, because you never know when what you read was wrong.  I did go to the HBD to try to figyre out were I went wrong, in addition to Jeffs last post, this post had some ggod info to further explain extraction http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3235.html#3235-11.  This link also provides some information on extraction from steeping malts.

However, this new understanding (ooohhh I am so ashamed, bad brewer) brings up another question, if all of these malts produce such high extraction, why would you expect such a drop in extraction for historic brown malts?  It seems, when comparing to values for modern roasted malt, the maximum decrease in extraction would be about 1/3, which would be comparable to values given in the above link for black patent and roasted barley that are given as 55%, and probably considerably higher, modern brown malt is given at 70%, comparabe to 80% for pale.  Of course enzymes are a possible issue, but as Adam has stated there are recipes that call for 100% brown malt so they obviously had some enzymes, and even if they did not, it is easy enough to convert grains without enzymes by adding grains with enzymes, as was commonly done in the midddle ages, as seen by the high adjunct amounts in some recipes (assuming that the oats and rye were not malted), and in modern recipes like wits, that are often 50% or so unmalted grain.

Nate (hanging his head in shame)

>>> Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> 12/05/00 07:58AM >>>
"NATHAN T Moore" <NTMOORE at SMTPGATE.DPHE.STATE.CO.US> wrote:
>extraction from crystal =
>malts varies greatly with color from around 5 for the darkest, and as Bob =
>say, up to 20 for the light colors.


This really isn't correct.  Crystal malts give extract much closer to 
regular base malts.  From Briess Malting's web site 
http://www.briess.com/ comes this extract information [my notes in 
square brackets]:

Two-Row Brewers Malt
Extract, f.g., d.b.	81 % minimum

Six-Row Brewers Malt
Extract, f.g., d.b.	79 % minimum

Pale Ale Malt [2-row]
Extract, f.g., d.b.	79.0 % minimum

Caramel Malt 10L [6-row]
Extract, f.g., d.b.	75.0 % minimum

Caramel Malt 40L [6-row]
Extract, f.g., d.b.	75.0 % minimum

Two-Row Caramel Malt 40L
Extract, f.g., d.b.	75.0 % minimum

Caramel Malt 80L [6-row]
Extract, f.g., d.b.	73.0 % minimum

Two-Row Caramel Malt 80L
Extract, f.g., d.b.	75.0 % minimum

Caramel Malt 120L [6-row]
Extract, f.g., d.b.	73.0 % minimum

If you are getting 30 points from a base malt such as their pale ale 
malt (a two row in the style of British pale malts), with 40L 
crystal, you would get 30*75/79 or about 28 points.  Even with 120L 
crystal, you'd get virtually the same.  In the amounts that crystal 
is normally used (not Dorchester Ale), you can safely ignore this 
difference.

>For example, take Vienna, another malt that has been =
>further processed, Vienna will often give 8 or so less extraction points =
>than pale malt.  On the other side, if you look at pils malt which is =
>dryed at a lower temp, and therefore less "messed with", you will often =
>get 1 or 2 points more extraction.


Again, Vienna and Munich give much closer extract to that of base malts:

Vienna Malt
Extract, f.g., d.b.	78 % minimum

Ashburne Mild Malt [a Vienna-like 2-row malt]
Extract, f.g., d.b.	79.0 % minimum

Vienna Malt [6-row]
Extract, f.g., d.b.	78 % minimum

Bonlander Munich Malt
Extract, f.g., d.b.	79 % minimum

Munich Malt 10L [6-row]
Extract, f.g., d.b.	76.0 % minimum

Munich Malt 20L [6-row]
Extract, f.g., d.b.	75.0 % minimum


>Similarly, the amount of fermentables that can be obtained from crytal =
>malt will vary based on color, but more importantly based on how it is =
>used.  If crystal is steeped after the mash, you will get no fermentables, =
>however, if you mash crystal, the dextrins can be broken down and =
>converted to fermentables.  The amount of dextrins from the crystal that =
>are converted to fermentables in the mash will vary based on the mash =
>temp, if you mash at a high temp, you will obtain few fermentables.

Hate to seem to be picking on you, Nate, but crystal malts do contain 
fermentables as is.  Many years ago (like 25 years) I made a gallon 
of ale from 100% crystal malt, steeped, not mashed with enzyme 
containing malts.  It tasted pretty bad, but it fermented.  I don't 
recall the apparent attenuation, but I think it may have been along 
the line of 50%.

The fermentability of crystal malts and how this may change when they 
are mashed with other malts has been well discussed with 
documentation in the last year on HomeBrew Digest.  Strangely, it 
seems that the fermentability profile doesn't change much even when 
they are mashed.  Those interested can search the archives at 
http://hbd.org.

Jeff
-- 
-=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu 
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943

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